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	<title>Comments on: In defence of &#8216;prejudice&#8217; and the strikers at Lindsey</title>
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	<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/</link>
	<description>&#34;We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down&#34; - Aneurin Bevan, 1953</description>
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		<title>By: David Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1073</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not exactly a defence, though, is it? The point is, this isn&#039;t a belief forced on them by the capitalist media; many of them are willing and eager to prostitute themselves and not only that, there are plenty of liberals far from the encumbering desire for money who are also engaged in denouncing the strike.

Bottom line: if Johann Hari wants to write an article like that, and can&#039;t, then he shouldn&#039;t be writing for the FT. The problem is deeper than that of course; Hari doesn&#039;t want to write such an article, and similarly nor do many other &quot;liberal&quot; commentators.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not exactly a defence, though, is it? The point is, this isn&#8217;t a belief forced on them by the capitalist media; many of them are willing and eager to prostitute themselves and not only that, there are plenty of liberals far from the encumbering desire for money who are also engaged in denouncing the strike.</p>
<p>Bottom line: if Johann Hari wants to write an article like that, and can&#8217;t, then he shouldn&#8217;t be writing for the FT. The problem is deeper than that of course; Hari doesn&#8217;t want to write such an article, and similarly nor do many other &#8220;liberal&#8221; commentators.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Marks</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1072</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charlie Marks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If I might defend the liberals - are they not constrained by writing for capitalist papers? I mean Johan Hari could hardly write a column like that which appeared in the FT, written by a business commentator, entitled &quot;Shoot the bankers, nationalise the banks&quot;. Part of the deal for being a liberal voice in the corporate media is that you must disavow anti-capitalist politics completely. Mark Steel gets away with being the socialist he is in the Indie - but the excuse here is that it&#039;s more palatable for a comic to come off all militant...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I might defend the liberals &#8211; are they not constrained by writing for capitalist papers? I mean Johan Hari could hardly write a column like that which appeared in the FT, written by a business commentator, entitled &#8220;Shoot the bankers, nationalise the banks&#8221;. Part of the deal for being a liberal voice in the corporate media is that you must disavow anti-capitalist politics completely. Mark Steel gets away with being the socialist he is in the Indie &#8211; but the excuse here is that it&#8217;s more palatable for a comic to come off all militant&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1071</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 14:09:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, and just as personal evidence, if it&#039;s needed, that defending the East Lindsey workers against media portrayals of supposed rampant racism is not on a par with being soft on racism wherever it raises it&#039;s ugly head, I ws this week &#039;invited&#039; before a panel to discuss the robustness of my protests at someone whom I contended was using their position to pander to &#039;populist sentiment&#039;, including the possibility of racism.  I gave a robust defence within the parameters of the discussion, for which the agenda for set unilaterally.  (My post on this matter as deleted as I can&#039;t afford legal support and the courts may well have been institutionally biased against my point of view.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and just as personal evidence, if it&#8217;s needed, that defending the East Lindsey workers against media portrayals of supposed rampant racism is not on a par with being soft on racism wherever it raises it&#8217;s ugly head, I ws this week &#8216;invited&#8217; before a panel to discuss the robustness of my protests at someone whom I contended was using their position to pander to &#8216;populist sentiment&#8217;, including the possibility of racism.  I gave a robust defence within the parameters of the discussion, for which the agenda for set unilaterally.  (My post on this matter as deleted as I can&#8217;t afford legal support and the courts may well have been institutionally biased against my point of view.)</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom

As garbled about on my blog, what would have been the reaction to these same posters had they been held aloft by members of UCU in a different different dispute but where they had the same relevance? Would the lecturers have been racist thugs, or would they have been offering ironic comment on Gordon Brown&#039;s choice of words?

If you can honestly (even though hypothetically) say that you would have condemned those lecturers as clearly racist, and their actions therefore wrong, then I&#039;ll take back my line of argument and just start swearing at you instead for being such a bleedin&#039; liberal with no sense of objective interest, seeing as this is Dave&#039;s site and that&#039;s what you tend to get when you come here (well, alright, not thay much swearing).  It&#039;s Friday and I&#039;m not feeling intellectually robust enough to take you on my own.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom</p>
<p>As garbled about on my blog, what would have been the reaction to these same posters had they been held aloft by members of UCU in a different different dispute but where they had the same relevance? Would the lecturers have been racist thugs, or would they have been offering ironic comment on Gordon Brown&#8217;s choice of words?</p>
<p>If you can honestly (even though hypothetically) say that you would have condemned those lecturers as clearly racist, and their actions therefore wrong, then I&#8217;ll take back my line of argument and just start swearing at you instead for being such a bleedin&#8217; liberal with no sense of objective interest, seeing as this is Dave&#8217;s site and that&#8217;s what you tend to get when you come here (well, alright, not thay much swearing).  It&#8217;s Friday and I&#8217;m not feeling intellectually robust enough to take you on my own.</p>
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		<title>By: David Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No &quot;hope&quot; about it; it&#039;s a matter of struggle and argumentation with the workers. If pursued in the right way, the conclusions will be drawn, if not, if pursued as the AWL seemed ready to pursue it, then they won&#039;t.

And if you&#039;d read any of my other articles on this subject, I&#039;ve pointed out that BJ4BW was a piss-poor choice of slogan, even if ironic. That doesn&#039;t change the fact that it&#039;s got nothing to do with discrimination. That article you highlighted, the same one I did, is discrimination in reverse, except the OP and the comments are basically using it to say &quot;I told you so&quot; that the &quot;discrimination&quot; by the striking workers will cause discrimination in Italy.

Which is bollocks, and will only happen if socialists pursue a non-strategy as regards organisation amongst such workers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No &#8220;hope&#8221; about it; it&#8217;s a matter of struggle and argumentation with the workers. If pursued in the right way, the conclusions will be drawn, if not, if pursued as the AWL seemed ready to pursue it, then they won&#8217;t.</p>
<p>And if you&#8217;d read any of my other articles on this subject, I&#8217;ve pointed out that BJ4BW was a piss-poor choice of slogan, even if ironic. That doesn&#8217;t change the fact that it&#8217;s got nothing to do with discrimination. That article you highlighted, the same one I did, is discrimination in reverse, except the OP and the comments are basically using it to say &#8220;I told you so&#8221; that the &#8220;discrimination&#8221; by the striking workers will cause discrimination in Italy.</p>
<p>Which is bollocks, and will only happen if socialists pursue a non-strategy as regards organisation amongst such workers.</p>
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		<title>By: Miller 2.0</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1068</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miller 2.0]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;By so fighting, they’ll realise in the course of struggle that the opposition are not the workers, it is the companies, the outsourcing and, in the final analysis, capitalism itself. This is a conclusion from which most liberals recoil of course.&quot;

You&#039;d hope, but that doesn&#039;t mean that the current slogans aren&#039;t an extremely poor choice.

Re. your comment on my post, I&#039;m shocked that you&#039;re shocked! I&#039;m not exactly in favour of discrimination, am I?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;By so fighting, they’ll realise in the course of struggle that the opposition are not the workers, it is the companies, the outsourcing and, in the final analysis, capitalism itself. This is a conclusion from which most liberals recoil of course.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;d hope, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that the current slogans aren&#8217;t an extremely poor choice.</p>
<p>Re. your comment on my post, I&#8217;m shocked that you&#8217;re shocked! I&#8217;m not exactly in favour of discrimination, am I?</p>
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		<title>By: David Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1067</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:13:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are absolutely correct of course - it&#039;s just from incidents like these which socialists of all stripes get a bad name as middle-class interfering busybodies. The AWL were right to want to talk to immigrant workers in London about the strike, but they took completely the wrong angle, and we wonder why our groupuscules have remained completely irrelevant.

I was happy to see the Socialist Party with representation up there; the SP are a class act when it comes to organising industrial action. Though, of course, actually getting them to support industrial action when they hold positions as in PCS is entirely a different matter. But yes, we should be focussed on our goals, not the actions of others, groups which will prove to be irrelevant if we succeed...

Still, the capitulation of the Guardian and many sections of the self-defined &quot;liberal-left&quot; offer valuable insights.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are absolutely correct of course &#8211; it&#8217;s just from incidents like these which socialists of all stripes get a bad name as middle-class interfering busybodies. The AWL were right to want to talk to immigrant workers in London about the strike, but they took completely the wrong angle, and we wonder why our groupuscules have remained completely irrelevant.</p>
<p>I was happy to see the Socialist Party with representation up there; the SP are a class act when it comes to organising industrial action. Though, of course, actually getting them to support industrial action when they hold positions as in PCS is entirely a different matter. But yes, we should be focussed on our goals, not the actions of others, groups which will prove to be irrelevant if we succeed&#8230;</p>
<p>Still, the capitulation of the Guardian and many sections of the self-defined &#8220;liberal-left&#8221; offer valuable insights.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1066</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 10:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, yes, though some hole seeing and some doughnut seeing can make for an exemplary analysis overall.

I didn&#039;t really look at what Left groups of various sorts were saying/doing myself (not least as i find the whole scene a bit confusing, not having ever had any formal involvement beyond Labour).  That&#039;s apart from the SP who actually appeared to be doing something, and I tend to think that comparative micro-analysis of the different approaches gets us less far than simply keeping arguing what needs to be done.  After all, the Daily Mail does not tend to win readers by arguing a careful comparative case against the Guardian, but by generally dissing it and its readership.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yes, though some hole seeing and some doughnut seeing can make for an exemplary analysis overall.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t really look at what Left groups of various sorts were saying/doing myself (not least as i find the whole scene a bit confusing, not having ever had any formal involvement beyond Labour).  That&#8217;s apart from the SP who actually appeared to be doing something, and I tend to think that comparative micro-analysis of the different approaches gets us less far than simply keeping arguing what needs to be done.  After all, the Daily Mail does not tend to win readers by arguing a careful comparative case against the Guardian, but by generally dissing it and its readership.</p>
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		<title>By: David Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1065</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1065</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think you are seeing the doughnut, so to speak, and I am seeing the hole. Up until recently I hadn&#039;t been paying much attention to commentary on the strike from the blogosphere, beyond the various sites I regularly read.

Then I looked at Lenin&#039;s Tomb and various other sites - particularly the comments section on the Splintered Sunrise article on the subject - and I&#039;m frankly shocked by the degree to which the Left reacted against it.

Have we learned nothing about how best to fight the fascists? Instead of picketing bloody Unite, the AWL as a whole should have been on the picket lines discussing with the workers what to do and why they were doing it.

I&#039;m appalled, frankly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are seeing the doughnut, so to speak, and I am seeing the hole. Up until recently I hadn&#8217;t been paying much attention to commentary on the strike from the blogosphere, beyond the various sites I regularly read.</p>
<p>Then I looked at Lenin&#8217;s Tomb and various other sites &#8211; particularly the comments section on the Splintered Sunrise article on the subject &#8211; and I&#8217;m frankly shocked by the degree to which the Left reacted against it.</p>
<p>Have we learned nothing about how best to fight the fascists? Instead of picketing bloody Unite, the AWL as a whole should have been on the picket lines discussing with the workers what to do and why they were doing it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m appalled, frankly.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/05/in-defence-of-prejudice-and-the-strikers-at-lindsey/#comment-1064</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=492#comment-1064</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are two heartening things about the last couple of weeks:

1) It showed up in all its glory the biases of the mainstream media, and suggested that, because that bias is actually so easy to expose, that the development of countermedia approaches has real potential.  It also show how the far right media approaches can be challenged and beaten even when the &#039;liberals&#039; you survey muddy the waters.

2) Much more importantly, the strikers at Lindsey actually won what they won relatively easily (this is not in any way to downplay the admirable commitment and organisation showed, which is what made it look easy).  The power-that-be were genuinely freaked out by what happened, and sought temporary solutions as soon as they possibly could.  The guard is, at least to some extent, down at the moment and a a few clean &#039;left jabs&#039;, as it were, could and should follow.  Where and when this should happen is daft to predict/propose given that for most people including me the East Lindsey upsurge came from nowhere. The left blogosophere and allied organisations job should be, over the weeks and months to come, be about encouraging the exploitation of whatever opportunities arise, and making sure it&#039;s in a position to be first on the scene, first with the facts, first with the analysis, when they do.

I do, mind, predict a riot, though of course as an office-bearer I couldn&#039;t possibly condone behaviour beyond the law.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are two heartening things about the last couple of weeks:</p>
<p>1) It showed up in all its glory the biases of the mainstream media, and suggested that, because that bias is actually so easy to expose, that the development of countermedia approaches has real potential.  It also show how the far right media approaches can be challenged and beaten even when the &#8216;liberals&#8217; you survey muddy the waters.</p>
<p>2) Much more importantly, the strikers at Lindsey actually won what they won relatively easily (this is not in any way to downplay the admirable commitment and organisation showed, which is what made it look easy).  The power-that-be were genuinely freaked out by what happened, and sought temporary solutions as soon as they possibly could.  The guard is, at least to some extent, down at the moment and a a few clean &#8216;left jabs&#8217;, as it were, could and should follow.  Where and when this should happen is daft to predict/propose given that for most people including me the East Lindsey upsurge came from nowhere. The left blogosophere and allied organisations job should be, over the weeks and months to come, be about encouraging the exploitation of whatever opportunities arise, and making sure it&#8217;s in a position to be first on the scene, first with the facts, first with the analysis, when they do.</p>
<p>I do, mind, predict a riot, though of course as an office-bearer I couldn&#8217;t possibly condone behaviour beyond the law.</p>
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