<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The democracy and materialism of &#8220;Cui bono?&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/</link>
	<description>&#34;We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down&#34; - Aneurin Bevan, 1953</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 10:06:07 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1143</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael, muchly appreciated]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, muchly appreciated</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Child</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Child]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry forgot to check that it goes that far I have this edition and its on page 50 here is the relevant bit

The average price of wage labour is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer. What, therefore, the wage labourer appropriates by means of his labour merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence. We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labour, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labour of others. All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it.

In bourgeois society, living labour is but a means to increase accumulated labour. In communist society, accumulated labour is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the labourer.

In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in communist society, the present dominates the past. In bourgeois society, capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.

And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.

By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.

But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also. This talk about free selling and buying, and all the other &quot;brave words&quot; of our bourgeois about freedom in general, have a meaning, if any, only in contrast with restricted selling and buying, with the fettered traders of the Middle Ages, but have no meaning when opposed to the communist abolition of buying and selling, or the bourgeois conditions of production, and of the bourgeoisie itself.

You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society.

In one word, you reproach us with intending to do away with your property. Precisely so; that is just what we intend.

From the moment when labour can no longer be converted into capital, money, or rent, into a social power capable of being monopolised, i.e., from the moment when individual property can no longer be transformed into bourgeois property, into capital, from that moment, you say, individuality vanishes.

You must, therefore, confess that by &quot;individual&quot; you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must, indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible.

Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.

It has been objected that upon the abolition of private property, all work will cease, and universal laziness will overtake us.

According to this, bourgeois society ought long ago to have gone to the dogs through sheer idleness; for those who acquire anything, do not work. The whole of this objection is but another expression of the tautology: There can no longer be any wage labour when there is no longer any capital.

All objections urged against the communistic mode of producing and appropriating material products, have, in the same way, been urged against the communistic mode of producing and appropriating intellectual products. Just as to the bourgeois, the disappearance of class property is the disappearance of production itself, so the disappearance of class culture is to him identical with the disappearance of all culture.

That culture, the loss of which he laments, is, for the enormous majority, a mere training to act as a machine.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry forgot to check that it goes that far I have this edition and its on page 50 here is the relevant bit</p>
<p>The average price of wage labour is the minimum wage, i.e., that quantum of the means of subsistence which is absolutely requisite to keep the labourer in bare existence as a labourer. What, therefore, the wage labourer appropriates by means of his labour merely suffices to prolong and reproduce a bare existence. We by no means intend to abolish this personal appropriation of the products of labour, an appropriation that is made for the maintenance and reproduction of human life, and that leaves no surplus wherewith to command the labour of others. All that we want to do away with is the miserable character of this appropriation, under which the labourer lives merely to increase capital, and is allowed to live only in so far as the interest of the ruling class requires it.</p>
<p>In bourgeois society, living labour is but a means to increase accumulated labour. In communist society, accumulated labour is but a means to widen, to enrich, to promote the existence of the labourer.</p>
<p>In bourgeois society, therefore, the past dominates the present; in communist society, the present dominates the past. In bourgeois society, capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality.</p>
<p>And the abolition of this state of things is called by the bourgeois, abolition of individuality and freedom! And rightly so. The abolition of bourgeois individuality, bourgeois independence, and bourgeois freedom is undoubtedly aimed at.</p>
<p>By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.</p>
<p>But if selling and buying disappears, free selling and buying disappears also. This talk about free selling and buying, and all the other &#8220;brave words&#8221; of our bourgeois about freedom in general, have a meaning, if any, only in contrast with restricted selling and buying, with the fettered traders of the Middle Ages, but have no meaning when opposed to the communist abolition of buying and selling, or the bourgeois conditions of production, and of the bourgeoisie itself.</p>
<p>You are horrified at our intending to do away with private property. But in your existing society, private property is already done away with for nine-tenths of the population; its existence for the few is solely due to its non-existence in the hands of those nine-tenths. You reproach us, therefore, with intending to do away with a form of property, the necessary condition for whose existence is the non-existence of any property for the immense majority of society.</p>
<p>In one word, you reproach us with intending to do away with your property. Precisely so; that is just what we intend.</p>
<p>From the moment when labour can no longer be converted into capital, money, or rent, into a social power capable of being monopolised, i.e., from the moment when individual property can no longer be transformed into bourgeois property, into capital, from that moment, you say, individuality vanishes.</p>
<p>You must, therefore, confess that by &#8220;individual&#8221; you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must, indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible.</p>
<p>Communism deprives no man of the power to appropriate the products of society; all that it does is to deprive him of the power to subjugate the labour of others by means of such appropriations.</p>
<p>It has been objected that upon the abolition of private property, all work will cease, and universal laziness will overtake us.</p>
<p>According to this, bourgeois society ought long ago to have gone to the dogs through sheer idleness; for those who acquire anything, do not work. The whole of this objection is but another expression of the tautology: There can no longer be any wage labour when there is no longer any capital.</p>
<p>All objections urged against the communistic mode of producing and appropriating material products, have, in the same way, been urged against the communistic mode of producing and appropriating intellectual products. Just as to the bourgeois, the disappearance of class property is the disappearance of production itself, so the disappearance of class culture is to him identical with the disappearance of all culture.</p>
<p>That culture, the loss of which he laments, is, for the enormous majority, a mere training to act as a machine.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Child</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1146</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Child]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:49:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1146</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q2GzsvWurCMC&amp;printsec=frontcover&amp;dq=Manifesto+of+the+Communist+Party&amp;ei=LGWcSYu7IZWyyQTz85kH Page 50]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q2GzsvWurCMC&#038;printsec=frontcover&#038;dq=Manifesto+of+the+Communist+Party&#038;ei=LGWcSYu7IZWyyQTz85kH" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q2GzsvWurCMC&#038;printsec=frontcover&#038;dq=Manifesto+of+the+Communist+Party&#038;ei=LGWcSYu7IZWyyQTz85kH</a> Page 50</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1145</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1145</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, but what page of which edition?  Sorry to hassle.  Where is it on lien by the wya?  Assume at marxists.org ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, but what page of which edition?  Sorry to hassle.  Where is it on lien by the wya?  Assume at marxists.org ?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Child</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1144</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Child]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1144</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Charlie bookseller question and my job to answer, Manifesto of the Communist Party Karl Marx and Frederick Engels 1916]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charlie bookseller question and my job to answer, Manifesto of the Communist Party Karl Marx and Frederick Engels 1916</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1142</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:57:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1142</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ooh?  Charlie - can you reference that quote for me?  I want to use that loads alongside the Polyani one i&#039;m always using.  Swapsies?

If it&#039;s anything like the Anglican Church, Dave (I sit on the Property Advisory Group of the Liverpool Anglican Diocese - a sitting on which I can offer a full robust, worm-that-turned-when-he-realised-what-was-up defence for, should you ever wish) it&#039;s property investment.

But suspect Charlie knows more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooh?  Charlie &#8211; can you reference that quote for me?  I want to use that loads alongside the Polyani one i&#8217;m always using.  Swapsies?</p>
<p>If it&#8217;s anything like the Anglican Church, Dave (I sit on the Property Advisory Group of the Liverpool Anglican Diocese &#8211; a sitting on which I can offer a full robust, worm-that-turned-when-he-realised-what-was-up defence for, should you ever wish) it&#8217;s property investment.</p>
<p>But suspect Charlie knows more.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1141</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 10:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1141</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What new ways are they using to raise money? Sounds intriguing, bearing in mind how heavily the church has invested in different business interests like tourism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What new ways are they using to raise money? Sounds intriguing, bearing in mind how heavily the church has invested in different business interests like tourism.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Charlie Marks</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1140</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Charlie Marks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 04:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My Catholic friends tell me their church is short of funds and is trying to raise money in ways it never has before. Proof of the impact the recession is having on religious institutions...

And a little Marx &amp; Engels is due:

&quot;By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Catholic friends tell me their church is short of funds and is trying to raise money in ways it never has before. Proof of the impact the recession is having on religious institutions&#8230;</p>
<p>And a little Marx &amp; Engels is due:</p>
<p>&#8220;By freedom is meant, under the present bourgeois conditions of production, free trade, free selling and buying.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Child</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Child]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Feb 2009 16:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David I am flattered that you bother to read my semiliterate ramblings, I have to admit to having to look up the meaning of obfuscate, I enjoy your blog a great deal, as much for the writing style as for your political comment.

Here in Thanet we have district and county administrations all Conservative and a Conservative and Labour MP, as it falls into two constituencies, all seem to be prepared in the name of increasing employment, to allow large companies to take dangerous environmental risks.

That said I am not on the environmentalist band wagon to the point of joining the green party, politically I tend to vote for the person rather than the party, mainly because of the problems that are peculiar to this area. Thanet is a deprived area but in the southeast so doesn’t benefit from the largesse of a Labour government, as it would were it in the north.

The problem with global warming though is that it transcends politics, even the politics of terror as a means overthrowing the system, because it means the end of our species.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David I am flattered that you bother to read my semiliterate ramblings, I have to admit to having to look up the meaning of obfuscate, I enjoy your blog a great deal, as much for the writing style as for your political comment.</p>
<p>Here in Thanet we have district and county administrations all Conservative and a Conservative and Labour MP, as it falls into two constituencies, all seem to be prepared in the name of increasing employment, to allow large companies to take dangerous environmental risks.</p>
<p>That said I am not on the environmentalist band wagon to the point of joining the green party, politically I tend to vote for the person rather than the party, mainly because of the problems that are peculiar to this area. Thanet is a deprived area but in the southeast so doesn’t benefit from the largesse of a Labour government, as it would were it in the north.</p>
<p>The problem with global warming though is that it transcends politics, even the politics of terror as a means overthrowing the system, because it means the end of our species.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/02/14/the-democracy-and-materialism-of-cui-bono/#comment-1138</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=505#comment-1138</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael, I&#039;m not quite so ready to jump on the environmentalist train just yet. I mean, granted, many large corporations are finding ways to use PR and a weakened media to obfuscate the damage they&#039;re doing to the environment - that much is a given.

However, I&#039;m not so sure that capitalism won&#039;t find a loophole to escape ecological catastrophe. Interestingly, I think this will play our as environment versus the labour movement in the press. Perhaps this is something for a fully detailed article...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael, I&#8217;m not quite so ready to jump on the environmentalist train just yet. I mean, granted, many large corporations are finding ways to use PR and a weakened media to obfuscate the damage they&#8217;re doing to the environment &#8211; that much is a given.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m not so sure that capitalism won&#8217;t find a loophole to escape ecological catastrophe. Interestingly, I think this will play our as environment versus the labour movement in the press. Perhaps this is something for a fully detailed article&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

