Convince me; rational argument and the BNP
As a result of the BNP being invited on to a BBC debate show, there is a lot of discussion in blogoland about how best to combat fascism. A recent online poll by Metro newspaper, which was twittered and blogged by people of different opinions, showed a large majority (76%) against allowing the BNP on Question Time. Those in favour often voice the opinion that the best way to beat the BNP is to take them apart live on air, so that their lies may be exposed once and for all. Richard Seymour amusingly dubbed this a demand not for Question Time but for show trials.
On one level, it seems a fair enough demand. The BNP flagrantly lie – any cursory examination of their electoral material proves as much – and there can be no harm in letting them repeat these lies explicitly for the purpose of proving them to be lies. As intellectually satisfying as that might be – and I’m among those who go positively purple when I hear porkies being told and no one challenging them – I’m not entirely sure the broader point is correct. Who, exactly, is going to be convinced even if representatives of each major party gangs up to ‘expose’ the BNP?
Nine hundred thousand people voted for the BNP in the European elections this year; is it them we’re aiming at? We don’t know how many of them will be watching, we don’t know why they voted BNP and we don’t know if – no matter how much evidence to the contrary – they will change their views or their votes. Without clarifying these variables, I don’t really see that there’s an argument to be made in favour of allowing the BNP a platform simply for the purpose of putting up people who will attack whatever they say – whether the platform is the Oxford Union or the BBC.
The broader question I’m getting at here is this; does rational argument, on its own, change minds? Like me, many inhabitants of blogoland will have experience debating. Whether with friends, relatives, in formal debating tournaments, as part of political parties or in response to comments on blogs, debating is common in the blogosphere. Many of us too have experience of people changing their minds – but what we can’t say is that we know it to have been in response to rational argument – we simply can’t narrow down all the variables to one.
Friends and relatives will naturally be more susceptible to what we say, because we have a personal relationship with them – a bond of trust. People may not change their opinions solely based on the ties of family and friendship, but as a factor it can’t be ruled out. Secondly there’s the old chestnut of how someone says something. If you have two people stating essentially the same argument but in two different ways, and one ‘persuades’ more people than another, can we really say that it is as a result of rational argument rather than rhetoric?
Thirdly, the concept of persuasion by rational argument need not take into account experience. Someone can watch a national figure citing statistics and examples to back up their point, but when it comes down to it remain unmoved. Their own personal experience of discrimination against white people (or whatever) colours their judgment – just as our own experiences, and the experiences of the notional speaker, colour our judgments. Marketing in politics makes the argument that it is possible to co-opt this experience to the advantage of the speaker.
Yet to invert that position, perhaps it is more important that we change the experience than change our argument. Then there is the concept of hegemony; what is referred to as ‘common sense’ is part of a wider system of ideas. These ideas are selected and endorsed with a given context of material and power, widening or narrowing their reach according to laws that take no account of the inner rationality of the argument. Indeed arguments can be openly contradictory and still pass relatively unscrutinized – for example the Nazi conception of the Jew.
As Slavoj Zizek puts it: “This is also why fascism definitely is a populism: its figure of the Jew is the equivalential point of the series of (heterogeneous, inconsistent even) threats experienced by individuals: the Jew is simultaneously too intellectual, dirty, sexually voracious, hard-working, financially exploitative…” (In Defense, p279). The victimization of Jews did not pass unchallenged by German society – both intellectually and in activist terms. Yet rational inconsistencies didn’t prevent Der Sturmer publishing its bullshit nor people from lapping it up.
To give a different example, people are presented with concepts that challenge specific items of religious faith pretty regularly. Most of them simply filter out those arguments they dislike and continue along their merry way. This makes it especially irritating to debate with these people, who often display the most glaring inconsistencies and hypocrisies – and yet they have millions of followers, and not for want of being exposed, shamed, challenged and so forth. Ideas continue in circulation not merely because of their rational content but because of how their content (rational or not) interacts with a variety of other factors, material and ideological.
Straightforward rational argument, as I hope I have demonstrated, will not affect the factors which ultimately determine the success or failure of the BNP argument. People sympathetic to the BNP will find ways around open confrontation with the evidence presented to them: the arguments of mainstream politicians can be dismissed as self-interested twaddle. There is thus no reason to allow the BNP to consolidate their support with an invitation to be oppositional pricks at a mainstream political debate and the subsequent pep rally that would certainly result.
At the very least, even if I find that my disavowal of rational argument alone is ultimately unsupportable, I think that we can beat the BNP without giving them a national platform. Someone appearing on the doorstep of a voter’s house, supporting a candidate who has just called into the house next door, is a stronger statement than anything a professional politician can say to refute the BNP whilst on television. It combines the experiential and the ideological – and offers scope to involve people in changing the material, if the candidate has the right policies.
Here is the key problem; it’s not that the BNP haven’t been called out or exposed, or that the media has given them an easy ride. As a political party, the BNP are really quite villified, even by the right-wing press, which loves salacious and criminal gossip about them. The problem is a) that the mainstream alternatives aren’t offering the chance to change things and b) that the context of political debate is being framed by people who are hostile to the BNP but buy into a lot of their preconceptions – and who don’t care if they are objectively wrong.
This is why the fight against the BNP is ultimately Labour’s to win or lose. Labour is the only political party founded on the basis of the organisation of workers, in the workplace as well as in communities, and the formulation of a political programme on their behalf. The mass organizations implied by this are the basis on which people can be incited to engagement, to force the pace of change rather than passively reacting to it. The growth of fascism is essentially a reaction to change, an expression of powerlessness resultant from the collapse of mass politics.
The growth of fascism among workers is little different from the growth of terrorism. People see a problem, they look for a way to fix it – and if we aren’t offering better ways to fix things, then they’re going to choose the extreme options. And make no mistake, Labour and the trades unions aren’t offering an alternative; in this gap between the rhetoric of leaders of the party and the experience of the members, disillusion, anger, frustration and irrationality find perfect breeding grounds. If this doesn’t change, no ‘debate’ will halt BNP support.
Labour Party leaders – and no doubt leaders of the other parties too – use their national platforms to ask people to get involved. Thus grows the belief that it is people themselves who are changing, and that the era of mass politics has passed, that people are more interested in other things. With one hand this encouragement, with the other the systematic centralization of power and the persistent failure to give actual power to the representative organs that survive from the era when millions of people were members of political parties instead of less than a million between all of them.
No wonder then that ‘debate’ takes on the appearance of a colossus astride the national political scene – because it’s not backed by anything. Certainly not by any political activity except its lowest common denominator: delivering leaflets. This is as much true for the debate with the BNP as it is for the debate between Nick Clegg, David Cameron and Gordon Brown – just as it is true for the speechifying of Jon Cruddas and other semi-popular figures on the Left. Whatever the configuration of national politics, everyone knows what needs to be done on the ground – but none of them are actually doing it.
Enter the BNP.
I’m in agreement on your stance re: no-platform. I think we differ though, on the reason for the BNP’s recent rise. It is not necessarily the faliure of establishment parties that has created the space of the BNP. “Every fascism is an index of a failed revolution”, as Benjamin put it. The counter-revolutionary force of neoliberalism was so succesful that we now see a reaction to the excesses of this mode of governance from the far right, taking over in some respects the territory that could have been so much more positively occupied by the left. In this analysis, it is the success of mainstream political parties (including ‘new’ labour) and the faliures of the left over the last twenty years that are to blame. Oh, and the Nazi thugs waiting in the wings the whole time….
This is why I say that the fight is Labour’s to win or lose. The “failed revolution” (obviously far shy of genuine revolutionary conditions even before the neoliberal tsunami) is failed precisely because Labour failed to represent working people and attacked its own internal regime in order to save itself from being driven leftwards.
This post has convinced me, Dave.
You’re being ironic, I presume, Charlie?
I agree with most of what you say here, but I am still unsure about the role of Labour.
It seems to me that New Labour has a major responsibility for the rise of the BNP – in that its disconnect from the communities it used to serve and its Tory policies have created a vacuum that the BNP fill in some areas (places like Stoke, Burnley, Swanley, Barking). This is part of a broader evacuation of the left from working class communities in the post-68 period, and of the Thatcherite assault on the political infrastructure of working class communities.
A massive renewal of a working class oriented Labour Party might reverse that – but is unlikely to happen. In the meantime, what is possible is the renewal of grassroots community-based politics in working class areas such as the ones the BNP challenges, based around the issues that actually effect BNP voters, in a very concrete way. This is similar to the approach Left Luggage http://theleftluggage.wordpress.com/ are advocating, or a non-dogmatic version of what the IWCA are advocating. It seems to me that this could involve grassroots Labour activists, it could involve supporting those Labour candidates that take up these issues in appropriate ways, but it cannot be a vehicle for the Labour Party in any way.
(Of course, the growth of the BNP in working class areas is only half the story. The BNP are playing a double game, appealing to a more traditional petit bourgeois right-wing politics of resentment. In the areas of the SW and SE where this is the key factor, what I am advocating won’t make much difference.)
Actually in the south-east the BNP manage to appeal to working class communities as well. The area they got elected to in Sevenoaks, I understand, has a big estate.
I agree that we need a renewal of grassroots community-based politics, and I have an article forthcoming on what Labour’s role should be. As should be evident from my articles on the Convention of the Left and other attempts to establish co-operation even without political union between Left groups, I am all for a resurgence of working class activism, and I believe the LRC and Labour Left should support that even where it stands outside the formal structures of the Labour Party.
The problem there, I think, is not the dogmatic attitude of the Labour Left but the lack of funds forthcoming from unions, even the ones disaffiliated or likely to disaffiliate. I am given to understand that it was under union insistence that the LRC did not open the Socialist Youth Network to participation from the Socialist Party, Socialist Workers’ Party and other groups that stand candidates against Labour.
I think that attitude is untenable, simply because so many Labour candidates are appalling.
“The growth of fascism among workers is little different from the growth of terrorism. People see a problem, they look for a way to fix it – and if we aren’t offering better ways to fix things, then they’re going to choose the extreme options. And make no mistake, Labour and the trades unions aren’t offering an alternative; in this gap between the rhetoric of leaders of the party and the experience of the members, disillusion, anger, frustration and irrationality find perfect breeding grounds. If this doesn’t change, no ‘debate’ will halt BNP support.”
Unfortunately, without debate, this won’t change. Without debate, then Labour will believe that the centre is as uniform as it has over the last decade. You are right in that it is not a debate with the BNP per se that is needed, but there needs to be a real engagement with the 40% of people who no longer feel the need to turn out and vote, and it is possible that if the parties have to face up to a platform with Fascists they might take this a bit more seriously.
I can’t see how. Debate is important, I’m not denying that, but it’s just words. In terms of words, in terms of using the media – including social media – Labour have been remarkably effective. But the gains are ephemeral because it’s not backed up with action: we can talk about the decline in waiting lists all we like, but this does not reflect the experience of many working class people when it comes to the NHS. That’s just one example.
This isn’t altered by giving the BNP a platform – it certainly won’t alter the attitude of Labour’s leaders, who have faced every type of pressure imaginable from the grassroots, from the parliamentary party and from the liberal element of the commentariat. I think any contention to the contrary is a departure from reality.
Why all the furore over the BNP. They have two MEPs, hardly earth shattering is it.
What are you afraid of, remember:-
The truth doesn’t become any less true because it’s unpalatable.
I wasn’t being ironic.
Well, good – I’m glad I convinced you.
Dave,
Sorry it’s taken me a while to get around to responding.
I guess my main beef with your article is the contention that debating the BNP is about using rational argument to guide rational minds to conclusions amenable to conditions of reflective equilibrium (so to speak
)
I don’t think that’s why debating the BNP could really work. I think it could really work because actually a lot of people don’t know what the BNP really stand for right now.
I don’t believe 900,000 BNP voters are all committed racists and fascists. I believe *some* are – but many are just angry, or have vague notions about the BNP being “for Britain” and “anti-PC”.
I think putting the BNP on a big national platform and demonstrating infront of a big TV audience their history, the views of their senior members as previously expressed, the literature they sell on their webiste etc would be very, very damaging. I also think Griffin is a terrible TV performer, and would act like the angry ranting fool he is, to his own and his party’s detriment.
I will admit, however, that this is empirical speculation: it may be that 900,000 BNP voters – and more sympathisers beside – are in fact proto-fascists and having Griffin on TV will embolden their fascist tendencies.
But either way, I don’t think that just because this is an argument about debate that it should be parsed solely in terms of rational argument designed to convince highly-reflective thinkers. Stonking great demonstrations of nastiness are a very effective weapon in the battle of debate: the emotive pull of such demonstrations can be significantly more powerful than any rational conclusions. Debating the BNP live offers myriad opportunitites for such stonking demonstrations of their nastiness. The aim doesn’t need to be to ratinally convince, but simply to expose.
Nonetheless, we as usual agree abour a fair amount aside from these issues:
“The growth of fascism among workers is little different from the growth of terrorism. People see a problem, they look for a way to fix it – and if we aren’t offering better ways to fix things, then they’re going to choose the extreme options. And make no mistake, Labour and the trades unions aren’t offering an alternative; in this gap between the rhetoric of leaders of the party and the experience of the members, disillusion, anger, frustration and irrationality find perfect breeding grounds. If this doesn’t change, no ‘debate’ will halt BNP support.”
Because this is spot on.
Re David at 6: Actually in the south-east the BNP manage to appeal to working class communities as well. The area they got elected to in Sevenoaks, I understand, has a big estate. This is absolutely right. I am not saying the SE is a middle class region! Swanley in Sevenoaks is classic case. Solidly working class council estate, a long-time Labour island in the Tory sea of Sevenoaks. An almost all white area, where racism cannot have been a major factor. The major factor here was clearly utter disillusion with a Labour party which has failed to deliver much. And that is why I cannot see a Labour-led local strategy as a solution. Locally, we need to re-create the infrastructure of community politics that decades of Thatcherism and de-industrialisation have destroyed
Sorry, forgot my last hald sentence. We cannot wait for a national revival of left-wing Labour to save us.
Here’s my key difficulty Bob: no one disputes that Labour have good councillors – but we acknowledge that they are restricted from doing what they should be able to by the attitude of the party nationally, or hacks locally and so on.
Then you have smaller ventures – like the IWCA for instance – which run up against the trouble that they don’t win control of any bodies of government and therefore they experience fatigue? This is definitely what happened to the IWCA in Oxford.
My point here is that the difference between Labour and our smaller brethren is not electoral – though Labour activists are always working with the disadvantage of a national party that is just plain balls. The difference is on the ground.
Then this comes back to, “some Labour councillors are good” and likewise, Labour has many solid working class activists. So I don’t see the reason to dismiss the potential for a Labour-led local strategy. It certainly won’t be Labour leadership led, no argument there – but I personally have hopes that the Left within Labour will rediscover their local roots, either because they listen to Paul and I, or at the worst, once John McDonnell et al are thrown out of parliament – either by the bureaucracy or by disillusioned voters.
I’m sorry I’m a bit late on this. First, just for clarity I’m Paul C not Paul S who has already commented above.
As a Labour councillor – and I hope not that bad a one – I should comment on Bob’s view that we can’t wait on the Labour left to get its act together/that we need to encourage communty politics etc. etc.. I’m a Labour councillor because the Labour party is still currently the most effective mechanism for me to be a socialist git. If there was another one, then I’d be another kind of councillor.
Yes, I agree. If the Labour party locally is crap, just get on with it. But don’t just ignore the Labour party. Take it over instead when you’ve got a spare Tuesday in February. If it’s crap, it won’t be that hard. See Manchester c1982, Lambeth ??1978. It’s got money (well some) and institutional clout, which are handy. Then organise with local unions to campaign for a disaffiliation at national level and reaffiliate locally on the basis of same cash in/more influence out.
Then don’t get sucked in either to the current MP-led Labour party machine if it still exists (‘cos you’ll be working on dismantling), and remember electoral politics is only 31.7% of the job. And don’t get sucked into ‘local government is everthing important round here’ agenda.
Good discussion – I’ll pick it up in part 4 of my mega-series on where the Labour left goes from here, coming to a PC screen near you soon.
I don’t think we really disagree, but it is worth reaching clarity I guess!
My problem with the IWCA version of what’s needed, altho my analysis of the problem is very similar, is precisely that they write off the Labour Party totally. I fully agree there are good activists and good councillors locally, who are part of the solution not part of the problem. I would have no problem with them initiating action on the ground.
On the other hand, a national strategy which takes the Labour Party as its starting point can not be the basis for the renewal of community-based politics required to defeat the BNP. The reason for this is plain: that the national Labour government IS part of the problem, and a Labour-led strategy is from the start compromised and tainted.
Bob, have a look at the new article up, which attempts to build on what we’ve been talking about and ties in some extra stuff from ModBlog and Socialist Unity.
I hate the BNP. And think if some people think nick griffin is not being treated propely they should not care its not them.And nick griffin should be treated like he treats non british people ella age 8-9
And yet another press website against bnp! How on earth is britian a democracy if your making the choices for us! Bnp is NOT I repeat NOT how these are making them out. Yes BNP used to be racist but not anymore hasn’t for ages. BNP policy is to kick out the 2 million ILLEGAL immagrants and asylum seekers. Anyone British no matter what colour is more than welcome to britian as long as they are paying tax like the rest of us. Furthermore they allow any race to join and vote for there party! So what you read above is a lie. Vote BNP!
So why if “anyone British no matter what the colour is more than welcome to Britain” do the BNP refer to people who are black and born in Britain as “ethnically foreign”, John? Try again.