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	<title>Comments on: The fifth tradition (part 3 of 6): ‘Bevanite Ellie’ and what our Keynesian past tells us about a socialist future</title>
	<atom:link href="http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/</link>
	<description>&#34;We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down&#34; - Aneurin Bevan, 1953</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 May 2012 18:49:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Is making your own bread a progressive act? &#187; 21stCenturyFix.org.uk</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-31546</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Is making your own bread a progressive act? &#187; 21stCenturyFix.org.uk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 15:25:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-31546</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] worthy witness to such contradictions can be found here on the subject of, amongst other things, the progressive case and Keynes. Read it at your pleasure [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] worthy witness to such contradictions can be found here on the subject of, amongst other things, the progressive case and Keynes. Read it at your pleasure [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Entanglement city, the profit index and telecom suicides &#187; 21stCenturyFix.org.uk</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-30827</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Entanglement city, the profit index and telecom suicides &#187; 21stCenturyFix.org.uk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Apr 2012 15:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-30827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] should, as I suggested in Paul&#8217;s post over on www.thoughcowardsflinch.com, move away from a definition of profit in pecuniary terms and widen it to a broader concept of a [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] should, as I suggested in Paul&#8217;s post over on <a href="http://www.thoughcowardsflinch.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.thoughcowardsflinch.com</a>, move away from a definition of profit in pecuniary terms and widen it to a broader concept of a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Liberal Conspiracy &#187; These are The Tories at Ground Zero</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-3561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liberal Conspiracy &#187; These are The Tories at Ground Zero]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 09:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-3561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] the Mont Pelerin project to roll back the welfare state completely, to take back once and for all the concessions the working class made in the 20th century through its revolutions and its threat of revolution. This is the ideology that lies behind the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] the Mont Pelerin project to roll back the welfare state completely, to take back once and for all the concessions the working class made in the 20th century through its revolutions and its threat of revolution. This is the ideology that lies behind the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The fifth tradition (part 4 of 6): A five point plan for the organisation of the Labour left &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-3437</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The fifth tradition (part 4 of 6): A five point plan for the organisation of the Labour left &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 00:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-3437</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] part 3, I sought to deepen that enquiry, looking particularly at how working class struggle brought about [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] part 3, I sought to deepen that enquiry, looking particularly at how working class struggle brought about [...]</p>
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		<title>By: And what reform means to me as well &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-3368</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[And what reform means to me as well &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 00:33:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-3368</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] have covered both these periods of labour militancy, in some detail, here and here.  For an alternative ‘Fabian’ account which still, inadvertently almost, accepts that the root [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have covered both these periods of labour militancy, in some detail, here and here.  For an alternative ‘Fabian’ account which still, inadvertently almost, accepts that the root [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TCF: unflinchingly into the future &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-2765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TCF: unflinchingly into the future &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:20:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-2765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] future for the Labour Left (part 4 of 6), in which Chantal Mouffe gets battered again in the interests of socialism, and a cunning plan for [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] future for the Labour Left (part 4 of 6), in which Chantal Mouffe gets battered again in the interests of socialism, and a cunning plan for [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-2652</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 11:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-2652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Enjoyed this post a lot.

On the points about unemployment, there&#039;s statistical data to back-up your claim that it&#039;s now come to pass that higher unemployment just is something the post-1979 settlement accepts:

http://badconscience.com/2009/08/19/is-high-unemployment-a-policy-choice/

skip the text (it&#039;s a bit confused) and just go to the graph showing unemployment rates. Notice that post1979, the lowest levels of unemployment were permanently above the highest levels experienced from 1970-79. That is, post-Thatcher unemployment never went below the worst days of that supposedly terrible decade.

Which says somethnig about how popular perceptions now define and understand &quot;terrible&quot;...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoyed this post a lot.</p>
<p>On the points about unemployment, there&#8217;s statistical data to back-up your claim that it&#8217;s now come to pass that higher unemployment just is something the post-1979 settlement accepts:</p>
<p><a href="http://badconscience.com/2009/08/19/is-high-unemployment-a-policy-choice/" rel="nofollow">http://badconscience.com/2009/08/19/is-high-unemployment-a-policy-choice/</a></p>
<p>skip the text (it&#8217;s a bit confused) and just go to the graph showing unemployment rates. Notice that post1979, the lowest levels of unemployment were permanently above the highest levels experienced from 1970-79. That is, post-Thatcher unemployment never went below the worst days of that supposedly terrible decade.</p>
<p>Which says somethnig about how popular perceptions now define and understand &#8220;terrible&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-2636</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-2636</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Robert

Yes, I would have preferred Gordon Brown to say something different too.

Tom, Dave, Dom

I think the question of what language we use to desribe what we want and how we want to get there - whether to seek to re-appropriate terms which currently mean something else, or whether we accept that often such tersm are irrevocably &#039;lost&#039; and actually damage the socialist cause even when we use them - is a fascinating one something I&#039;ll try to return too.  As a general point, though, we shouln&#039;t be scared to develop our own terminology on our own terms.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert</p>
<p>Yes, I would have preferred Gordon Brown to say something different too.</p>
<p>Tom, Dave, Dom</p>
<p>I think the question of what language we use to desribe what we want and how we want to get there &#8211; whether to seek to re-appropriate terms which currently mean something else, or whether we accept that often such tersm are irrevocably &#8216;lost&#8217; and actually damage the socialist cause even when we use them &#8211; is a fascinating one something I&#8217;ll try to return too.  As a general point, though, we shouln&#8217;t be scared to develop our own terminology on our own terms.</p>
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		<title>By: donpaskini</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-2583</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[donpaskini]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-2583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good article, and I was particularly struck by the idea that reducing unemployment might just not be a priority any more - very interesting (and troubling).  Just wanted to comment on:

&quot;And to the extent that socialists begin using the idea of aspiration in the hopes of rebranding it, they find themselves caught within the internal logic of the meaning aspiration must necessarily have under capitalism: individualism.&quot;

I don&#039;t think socialists should talk about aspiration (which in the public debate is assumed to be bound up with individual advancement), but I&#039;m not sure that the internal logic here is quite as strong as all that.

I was really struck when I was a councillor by the extent to which people&#039;s aspirations were about their community and expressly opposed to aspiration-as-individuals-getting-rich.  I blogged about this - Middle England, home-owning, Daily Mail readers absolutely hated buy-to-let landlords because the actions of these landlords harmed aspirations to live in a nice, decent area where people knew each other.

By acting on these concerns with local campaigns, we got lots of new activists involved, we increased support for things like new social housing developments, and we got to a stage where local homeowners gave time and money to help council tenants when they were flooded (and Labour got 60% of the vote).  By responding to people&#039;s real aspirations, rather than those which capitalism seeks to impose on people, I think we can start to build these alliances amongst working-class people that Paul is talking about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article, and I was particularly struck by the idea that reducing unemployment might just not be a priority any more &#8211; very interesting (and troubling).  Just wanted to comment on:</p>
<p>&#8220;And to the extent that socialists begin using the idea of aspiration in the hopes of rebranding it, they find themselves caught within the internal logic of the meaning aspiration must necessarily have under capitalism: individualism.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think socialists should talk about aspiration (which in the public debate is assumed to be bound up with individual advancement), but I&#8217;m not sure that the internal logic here is quite as strong as all that.</p>
<p>I was really struck when I was a councillor by the extent to which people&#8217;s aspirations were about their community and expressly opposed to aspiration-as-individuals-getting-rich.  I blogged about this &#8211; Middle England, home-owning, Daily Mail readers absolutely hated buy-to-let landlords because the actions of these landlords harmed aspirations to live in a nice, decent area where people knew each other.</p>
<p>By acting on these concerns with local campaigns, we got lots of new activists involved, we increased support for things like new social housing developments, and we got to a stage where local homeowners gave time and money to help council tenants when they were flooded (and Labour got 60% of the vote).  By responding to people&#8217;s real aspirations, rather than those which capitalism seeks to impose on people, I think we can start to build these alliances amongst working-class people that Paul is talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/09/12/the-fifth-tradition-part-3-of-6-%e2%80%98bevanite-ellie%e2%80%99-and-what-our-keynesian-past-tells-us-about-a-socialist-future/#comment-2531</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Sep 2009 15:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1065#comment-2531</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tom; on the current basis, yes it is. It&#039;s that simple. And to the extent that socialists begin using the idea of aspiration in the hopes of rebranding it, they find themselves caught within the internal logic of the meaning aspiration must necessarily have under capitalism: individualism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom; on the current basis, yes it is. It&#8217;s that simple. And to the extent that socialists begin using the idea of aspiration in the hopes of rebranding it, they find themselves caught within the internal logic of the meaning aspiration must necessarily have under capitalism: individualism.</p>
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