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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;Nurse&#8217; Dale 10 years out of date</title>
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	<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/</link>
	<description>&#34;We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down&#34; - Aneurin Bevan, 1953</description>
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		<title>By: Independent commentator calls for higher hospital death rates &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-18912</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Independent commentator calls for higher hospital death rates &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Nov 2010 09:23:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-18912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] to the nursing profession, in line with previous insults from the likes of Melanie Phillips and Iain Dale, and reflect the kind of ignorance and poor research skills that would, I suspect, find her [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] to the nursing profession, in line with previous insults from the likes of Melanie Phillips and Iain Dale, and reflect the kind of ignorance and poor research skills that would, I suspect, find her [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Desperate defence &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-15699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Desperate defence &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-15699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] sometimes doesn&#8217;t seem very in touch with the 21st century.  Just as he was at least 10 years out of date on his understanding of nursing, so he&#8217;s out of date on what languages are actually being taught [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] sometimes doesn&#8217;t seem very in touch with the 21st century.  Just as he was at least 10 years out of date on his understanding of nursing, so he&#8217;s out of date on what languages are actually being taught [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dale saves the funniest post for last &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-4182</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dale saves the funniest post for last &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 15:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-4182</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] remember, is the very same Iain Dale who just weeks ago was insulting half a million nurses by saying a) he was a nurse; b) they really shouldn’t worry [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] remember, is the very same Iain Dale who just weeks ago was insulting half a million nurses by saying a) he was a nurse; b) they really shouldn’t worry [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tory hypocrisy and the reality of NHS care &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3691</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tory hypocrisy and the reality of NHS care &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 18:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] is the same Iain Dale who was recently railing against nurses having degrees, and displaying both a rank ignorance and a crass arrogance about nursing while doing so.   It&#8217;s to be noted that, while he&#8217;s happy to talk crap [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is the same Iain Dale who was recently railing against nurses having degrees, and displaying both a rank ignorance and a crass arrogance about nursing while doing so.   It&#8217;s to be noted that, while he&#8217;s happy to talk crap [...]</p>
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		<title>By: paulinlancs</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3676</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[paulinlancs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:53:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anne

Thanks for leaving your comment. I wasn&#039;t aware of your blog but I&#039;ll certainly be making reference to it at my place.

I love the straightforward focus on your blog on a) the Daily Mail, Spectator etc know fuck all b) what counts is staff ratios, and they are wrong.

With ref to your comment at my place, I&#039;d love to have more details on what you&#039;ve sent to Iain Dale as a corrective, and what he&#039;s ignored, as I think he really does need challenging and I&#039;d be happy to help with that.  He&#039;s probably a more accessible target than, say Melanie Phillips or the Daily Mail (that&#039;s not saying he&#039;s worse), and it would be good to see if we could, with a bit of concerted blog coverage, get some support for a look at the realities of ward-based nursing.

I&#039;ll carry on my history of the changes to nursing from a class/gender perspective as I get chance, and would value your comments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anne</p>
<p>Thanks for leaving your comment. I wasn&#8217;t aware of your blog but I&#8217;ll certainly be making reference to it at my place.</p>
<p>I love the straightforward focus on your blog on a) the Daily Mail, Spectator etc know fuck all b) what counts is staff ratios, and they are wrong.</p>
<p>With ref to your comment at my place, I&#8217;d love to have more details on what you&#8217;ve sent to Iain Dale as a corrective, and what he&#8217;s ignored, as I think he really does need challenging and I&#8217;d be happy to help with that.  He&#8217;s probably a more accessible target than, say Melanie Phillips or the Daily Mail (that&#8217;s not saying he&#8217;s worse), and it would be good to see if we could, with a bit of concerted blog coverage, get some support for a look at the realities of ward-based nursing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll carry on my history of the changes to nursing from a class/gender perspective as I get chance, and would value your comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Nurse Anne</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3673</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nurse Anne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Nov 2009 17:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3673</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Many of us have pointed out to Iain that he doesn&#039;t really understand what a nurse is...so far, he refuses to comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many of us have pointed out to Iain that he doesn&#8217;t really understand what a nurse is&#8230;so far, he refuses to comment.</p>
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		<title>By: A short, personal history of class and gender inequality in the NHS (part 1) &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3615</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A short, personal history of class and gender inequality in the NHS (part 1) &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 00:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3615</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] thought of the little episode for years, but it sprang to mind the other day, when in a comment on my post about Ian Dale’s ill-informed reaction to the news that all nurse training will be in higher education, another male nurse (Gary) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thought of the little episode for years, but it sprang to mind the other day, when in a comment on my post about Ian Dale’s ill-informed reaction to the news that all nurse training will be in higher education, another male nurse (Gary) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:32:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gary

Thanks for this.   

My point was not whether I think the expansion of nursing degrees is a good idea; it was the narrower one that Iain Dale couldn&#039;t be bothered to look up basic facts about the extent to which they already exist and why (Project2000).

On the broader point, though, I actually agree with a good deal of what you say, and while it wasn&#039;t the main focus of my article I as careful to point out that I had reservations, not least in respect of HCA terms and conditions.

I don&#039;t think it&#039;s the move to degree status in itself that is the cause of the problems you rightly identify, though that gets tangled up in it.  I agree that the RCN has for ever wanted to &#039;professionalise itself&#039; away from the nitty gritty of what we trained to do as nurses, and the way the degrees developed was far too closely modelled on the early degrees (Kings College, London and one or two other places) which were very clearly the preserve of a nursing elite of largely ruling class stock (I know this from experience as I worked with many as a student at a big south London teaching hospital in the 80s).

In fact the whole story of &#039;nursing standards&#039; is irrevocably tied to class (and obviously gender)and probably deserves a longer analyis than I can do right now, touching on how the nursing elite after the war was drawn from the ruling class happy on the one hand to pander to a medical profession keen to keep its own power base in the new NHS and on the other to keep its workforce under control.   

The development of degree nursing, and the subsequent development of a new exploitable workforce in the shape of HCAs (the new ENs, but without the pay or the staffing ratios) was a classic divide and rule managerialist tactic.  I think it&#039;s instructive to see what&#039;s happened to nursing (as a broad care job, including HCAs) and compare it to the development of physiotherapy and occupational therapy, for example, where there&#039;s been a real professional solidarity developed in the same way as in teaching through decent unionism/staff group work.

I may well tidy oup my thoughts on this into a full post as I think it&#039;s a fascinating area of cross cutting issues of power and class, which I&#039;ve not really considered for a while (though coincidentlly i was commenting on the early days of the NHS on another post a few days ago).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary</p>
<p>Thanks for this.   </p>
<p>My point was not whether I think the expansion of nursing degrees is a good idea; it was the narrower one that Iain Dale couldn&#8217;t be bothered to look up basic facts about the extent to which they already exist and why (Project2000).</p>
<p>On the broader point, though, I actually agree with a good deal of what you say, and while it wasn&#8217;t the main focus of my article I as careful to point out that I had reservations, not least in respect of HCA terms and conditions.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s the move to degree status in itself that is the cause of the problems you rightly identify, though that gets tangled up in it.  I agree that the RCN has for ever wanted to &#8216;professionalise itself&#8217; away from the nitty gritty of what we trained to do as nurses, and the way the degrees developed was far too closely modelled on the early degrees (Kings College, London and one or two other places) which were very clearly the preserve of a nursing elite of largely ruling class stock (I know this from experience as I worked with many as a student at a big south London teaching hospital in the 80s).</p>
<p>In fact the whole story of &#8216;nursing standards&#8217; is irrevocably tied to class (and obviously gender)and probably deserves a longer analyis than I can do right now, touching on how the nursing elite after the war was drawn from the ruling class happy on the one hand to pander to a medical profession keen to keep its own power base in the new NHS and on the other to keep its workforce under control.   </p>
<p>The development of degree nursing, and the subsequent development of a new exploitable workforce in the shape of HCAs (the new ENs, but without the pay or the staffing ratios) was a classic divide and rule managerialist tactic.  I think it&#8217;s instructive to see what&#8217;s happened to nursing (as a broad care job, including HCAs) and compare it to the development of physiotherapy and occupational therapy, for example, where there&#8217;s been a real professional solidarity developed in the same way as in teaching through decent unionism/staff group work.</p>
<p>I may well tidy oup my thoughts on this into a full post as I think it&#8217;s a fascinating area of cross cutting issues of power and class, which I&#8217;ve not really considered for a while (though coincidentlly i was commenting on the early days of the NHS on another post a few days ago).</p>
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		<title>By: Gary</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 13:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well I know plenty about Nursing, also a former RMN. I disagree totally.The elitist Royal &quot;College&quot; of Nursing , the management dominated club, loved project 2000 and the &quot;higher standards&quot; didnt they?, so much so  that many of this greedy bunch left to be the heirarchy of our biggest HUGE earning Nursing agencies. Since the closing of the best Nurse Training Schools in the world,(British) the new &quot;technical&quot; Nurses have seen the standards of care drop to appallingly levels with dirty MRSA CDIFF plagued hospitals throughout the land. THE TRUTH of the &quot;College&quot; is that they always resented Doctors having the glory and made no secret of the fact that one day &quot;super&quot; Nurses will be both Doctor AND Nurse. The barmpots.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well I know plenty about Nursing, also a former RMN. I disagree totally.The elitist Royal &#8220;College&#8221; of Nursing , the management dominated club, loved project 2000 and the &#8220;higher standards&#8221; didnt they?, so much so  that many of this greedy bunch left to be the heirarchy of our biggest HUGE earning Nursing agencies. Since the closing of the best Nurse Training Schools in the world,(British) the new &#8220;technical&#8221; Nurses have seen the standards of care drop to appallingly levels with dirty MRSA CDIFF plagued hospitals throughout the land. THE TRUTH of the &#8220;College&#8221; is that they always resented Doctors having the glory and made no secret of the fact that one day &#8220;super&#8221; Nurses will be both Doctor AND Nurse. The barmpots.</p>
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		<title>By: Liberal Conspiracy &#187; Which planet do Spectator writers inhabit?</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2009/11/12/nurse-dale-10-years-out-of-date/#comment-3511</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Liberal Conspiracy &#187; Which planet do Spectator writers inhabit?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=1464#comment-3511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] he&#8217;s simply factually wrong, and around twenty years behind the times (as Iain Dale was as well), seemingly unaware that the move to nurse training within higher education rather than [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] he&#8217;s simply factually wrong, and around twenty years behind the times (as Iain Dale was as well), seemingly unaware that the move to nurse training within higher education rather than [...]</p>
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