Home > General Politics, Terrible Tories > Counter-intuitive counter-intuition and why it’s not logical to trust the Tories

Counter-intuitive counter-intuition and why it’s not logical to trust the Tories

Stephanie Flanders, of the BBC’s  Stephanomics blog, said some very interesting things the other day in her reflections about Cameron’s speech in Davos, in which he said there wouldn’t be “swingeing cuts” in public spending in 2010.

In particular she drew a distinction between what she thinks Cameron’s and Osborne’s real views on deficit management are, and how they have been presented:

I’ve been wondering why Messrs Cameron and Osborne hadn’t made more effort to dispel the idea that they would put deficit reduction before economic growth.

Rightly or wrongly, both men believe that cutting the deficit quicker and deeper than Labour plans – starting in 2010 – could actually help the recovery, by preventing a costly run on government debt, and sharply higher long-term interest rates as a result. By and large, they’ve struggled to get this highly respectable – but deeply counter-intuitive – idea across to the British people. But yesterday, Mr Cameron had a bloomin’ good try.

This may be read as a “softening” of the Tory rhetoric around cuts. In some ways it is. But I don’t think the substance of the Conservatives’ post-election Budget plans has changed much in the last six months. What has changed is that they have finally decided to confront the “risking the recovery” argument head-on.

This is an interesting defence, but it is wrong in one important respect. 

Cutting the deficit quickly and deeply may be counter-intuitive to Flanders, a trained economist with an understanding of currently widely accepted Keynesian logic. 

But it is not counter-intuitive to a lot of people.  To people untrained in counter-cyclical conceptions of economic management, it makes perfectly decent sense to cut the deficit as quickly as possible; for many people, there is a ‘commonsense’ link between household economics (where ‘you only spend what you have’) and macro-economic management.

That is, of course, precisely the problem that Labour has had in setting out its Keynesian case for continuing spending to ‘lock in growth’, and the reason why till now they have been the party to distrust.  Stephanie and I might get Keynes.  Iain Dale and his followers do not and do not want to.

Now, though, the boot is on the other foot.   Everyone with a half-decent understanding of ‘real’ economics is advising Cameron and Osborne that they simply can’t cut the deficit as quickly as their political needs would have them, or they really do risk damaging the economy in the long-term.  They know, at one level, that they should try to do the right thing. 

Forced into this corner – where economists tell you one thing and your political strategist tell you another - Cameron has attempted to modulate his position, in a way which brings him much closer to Labour’s fiscal position.  As Flanders says in a subsequent post:

Once you strip away the debate about timing and possible cuts in 2010-11 – which, as I have said many times, has always been about rhetoric more than a big difference of policy between the parties – once you strip away that debate, this election could end up being fought over a difference of around 1% of GDP in medium-term spending plans.

That’s all very well for Flanders to say, but Cameron and Osborne can’t simply “strip away the debate”, because it is a debate which is raging within their party and amongst their core vote.  They have come too far with their appeal to their supporters’ “intuitive” belief in quick cuts – linked to a discourse about a wasteful public sector – to turn back  now. 

When they do try to modulate their position, as Cameron tried this weekend, all hell breaks loose in their ranks.  Just look at the Telegraph reader reactions here, and take a look at Conservative Home if you dare.   Cameron and Osborne are not even near the top jobs yet, and the ‘true believers’ are calling for their heads.  The talk is of betrayal of core values. of vacillation in the face of the enemy.  It is not talk of economic subtleties.

While Labour have been able, with reasonable effect, to turn the logic of Keynesian counter-cyclical spending to their advantage, by selling it to the public and their party as a move back to the needs of their core vote, the Conservative leadership has no such option in its attempt to come to terms with the economic realities they face.

As James Forsyth at the Spectator suggests, Cameron and Osborne are now hostage to a right of the party which cares little for the economic reality of what will happen if cuts come too quickly, either because they do not understand, or because they do not care:

They will come to regret this if (as polls suggest) a Conservative government is returned with a majority of less than 60. In these circumstances, a relatively small group of Conservative MPs — 30 or less — could cause the leadership real trouble. The Cornerstone group of traditionalist Tories MPs has more than 30 members and there is already talk of a ‘Cornerstone whip’, which could put pressure on the leadership on various issues.

The die is cast for Cameron and Osborne.   Whatever their private misgivings, it is quite clear that they will be dragged towards economic stupidity by the right of their party; the furious reaction to Cameron’s ‘backsliding’ in Davos confirms just that.

And there’s the terrible logic for Cameron and Osborne.  

By trying to come to terms with economic reality – by trying in some ways to the do the trustworthy thing - they have proved that they cannot be trusted.  

They have made their bed.  They must now lie on it.

 

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  1. February 4, 2010 at 1:23 am | #1

    On just one note, I suspect the ‘true believers’ will find – much to their chagrin – that they have been masterfully outmanoeuvered by Cameron. If the Tories increase their parliamentary seats by fifty or so, they’ll find that all the newbs are the same sort of lobby fodder that Labour got last time round. Except with the Tories it is even more explicit, with Cameron’s “A list” having been in play.

  2. paulinlancs
    February 4, 2010 at 12:19 pm | #2

    Which creates the odd logic that it’d be better for the tories to have a bigger majority. not convinced though that his A list will be quite as compliants a Labour’s 97 bunch – indications are that many of them are right wing loons.

  3. February 4, 2010 at 1:33 pm | #3

    We should run features on Tory PPCs, exposing said looniness.

  4. (Layman) Mike
    February 4, 2010 at 4:00 pm | #4

    Pestonomics counters by accusing CamWrong of attempting to engineer a gilt crisis (which your good selves may have suggested a while back).
    http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2010/02/01/peston-also-thinks-camerons-precipitating-a-crisis/
    My own guess at Tory economic policy is: high interest rates and high unemployment, as goals in their own right and irrespective of inflation.
    And if CamWrong doesn’t deliver an overall majority, expect a new frontman.

  5. Barney Stannard
    February 4, 2010 at 9:58 pm | #5

    I’m sorry Paul. I hate to be rude, but you really are talking rubbish here.

    (1) I can’t be bothered to argue the toss about what Flanders meant, but I think it is pretty clear that by ‘respectable but deeply counter-intuitive’ she actually meant economically respectable but commonsensically deeply counter-intuitive. On an intuitive level: cutting spending helps growth doesn’t make any sense.

    (2) To say that everyone with a half decent understanding of economics disagrees with cutting the deficit is just plain wrong e.g. John Taylor (Nobel Prize), Robert Lucas (Nobel Prize) the late Milton Friedman (Nobel Prize). Now these people may be wrong – who knows – but they do have something approaching a half-decent understanding of economics.

    (3) It is by no means clear keeping the deficit running was what Keynes meant. This is not the place for half-arsed exegeses of Keynes by all and sundry, but it suffices to say two things (a) Krugman thinks it took him thirty years to understand Keynes, so with all due respect I doubt you do (I certainly don’t) and (b) on at least a couple of very plausible readings of Keynes (Krugman’s that he appeared to argue for on his blog, and Mankiw’s re-reading) government spending is needed only to kick start the recovery – once that begins you should withdraw.

    (4) All this is not to say you aren’t right about cutting the deficit. Certainly the IFS (at a very brief glance) seem to think demand for gilts will hold; but then lots of people don’t think it will (read City AM any day for the bleating about the impending sovereign debt crisis – probably overblown, but as pointed out, a real increase in 5% GDP in gov deficit is associated with around 1.5% cost in borrowing costs…and we’re forecast to go up 10%…)BUT (and I never capitalise) it is not cut and dried! To paint the Tories as economic charlatans is just plain wrong. Utterly wrong. 100% wrong!

    (5) Coda: just re-read the Flanders passage you quote:

    “Rightly or wrongly, both men believe that cutting the deficit quicker and deeper than Labour plans – starting in 2010 – could actually help the recovery, by preventing a costly run on government debt, and sharply higher long-term interest rates as a result. By and large, they’ve struggled to get this highly respectable – but deeply counter-intuitive – idea across to the British people. But yesterday, Mr Cameron had a bloomin’ good try.”

    It just so so clearly doesn’t bear the interpretation you give to it. e.g. if it were so intuitive to the public, why have they struggled to get it across? Why does she say ‘rightly or wrongly’ etc.

    I could go on, I won’t, it will bore us all.

  6. February 5, 2010 at 12:41 pm | #6

    Barney, socialists may use Keynes but you that doesn’t mean subscribing fully to his ideas – he was after all a liberal who was concerned with rescuing capitalism. I don’t see why Paul can’t draw on some of his ideas without signing up to (or even necessarily understanding) all of it.

  7. Barney Stannard
    February 5, 2010 at 8:45 pm | #7

    I didn’t say he couldn’t. I said the Tories weren’t economically illiterate.

  8. February 6, 2010 at 1:19 pm | #8

    Barney @2: – sorry missed this comment in the madness of yesterday.

    Even when you’re rude you’re polite about it – a marvellous achievement.

    Following your numbering:

    1) You’re right that it’s not worth spending too long over what Flanders meant’ while it’s interesting it’s also a little bit confused in the middle, and that may be where some of our disagreement has its roots.

    But I’m sorry to be rude in my turn. ‘On an intuitive level: cutting spending helps growth doesn’t make any sense’ doesn’t in its turn make much sense to me. Perhaps where we’re talking at cross purposes is that you’re talking about overall spend in the economy, while I’m focused on government spending as being, intuitively, bad for growth. That,I maintain, is deeply embedded in many people’s interpretation of where we are, even though it’s, at the very least, very arguable from an ‘economist’ point of view.

    2) I conced my phrasing may be a little on the polemic side for your tastes. I wasn’t trying to suggest there was no accepted argument a la Taylor/Friedman – I’m not that uninformed. I was merely trying to stress that Cameron appears to be, from his Davos speech, going with the current ‘mainstream’ consensus (arguable, I know) that cutting when we’re still at the countercyclical point is not wise.

    3) Yes, I agree there’s a perfectly good interpretation of Keynes which holds that ‘government spending is needed only to kick start the recovery – once that begins you should withdraw. My point, as above. was that Cameron appeared to be conceding in Davos that we hadn’t reached that point, but that his party in the short to medium term will hold him back from acting in accordance with that acceptance.

    4) As above, my intention in this post – and I have to accept that if you didn’t get it then it didn’t come across well – is not to paint Cameron and Osborne as ‘charlatans’. Actually, I was seeking to do the reverse, and point out that as Cameron and Osborne (and their advisors) have looked at the issues properly, they are indeed trying to take a \non-charlatan\ line.

    Their problem is their party (rank and file and core support) who are seemingly locked into a ‘charlatan’, macho test battle with each other as to who can shout lousdest and longest about the need to cut and cut now, and as to who advocates this to the most extreme. This is tied into stuff and nonsense about the public sector being instrinsically wasteful and a barrier to economic growth. So yes, these people, feeding off each other and developing into a frenzy of outrage about Cameron’s ‘betrayal’ (mass hysteria as a concept) are charlatans, because they care nothing for rational thinking about what may or may not work in economic terms.

    5) Sorry, you’ve lost me a bit here. But as you suggest, I think it’s not worth getting into a scrap about this one, not least as we’d just get caught up in interpretations about interpetations, and their lies madness.

  9. Barney Stannard
    February 9, 2010 at 8:49 am | #9

    I must admit I didn’t read on to the latter half of your article. I was seized with economic rage before then.

    On the issues of misinterpretation, on re-reading I can see a more subtle and accurate interpretation. But that interpretation is rather at odds with your politics, because it allows that savage retrenchment in, say, 18 months time might be necessary. I didn’t think that was your position, which is why I attributed to you the stronger, more inaccurate position, that it is economic gibberish to say that cuts are a necessary part of the recovery.

  10. Barney Stannard
    March 8, 2010 at 10:54 pm | #10

    Couldn’t find a more up-to-date place to post this: another interesting article from Stephanie http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2010/03/taking_the_defecit_seriously.html

    I’m not going to claim it is conclusive: as it’s Goldman I don’t imagine the paper is available so we can’t look at the data, and I’m not even going to pretend I’d understand the stats anyway. But interesting nonetheless.

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