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	<title>Comments on: Musings on socialism and lifestylism</title>
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	<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/</link>
	<description>&#34;We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down&#34; - Aneurin Bevan, 1953</description>
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		<title>By: Barney Stannard</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-5067</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barney Stannard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 19:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-5067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting. I&#039;d put it the other way: a guy who serves at tills and stock shelves still serves at tills and stocks shelves even if they have a 1/10,000 vote in the direction of the firm.

I take one of the implicit points you were making to be that ownership (though you would put that word differently) is empowering and positive; no doubt it is. But I think it is not predicitively helpful to see it as underpinning the situation - rather what underpins the situation is the actual day-to-day of doing the job. The relation to capital is more accurately captured as a small constituent, the effect of which fluctuates with factors such as the nature of the job and company etc]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. I&#8217;d put it the other way: a guy who serves at tills and stock shelves still serves at tills and stocks shelves even if they have a 1/10,000 vote in the direction of the firm.</p>
<p>I take one of the implicit points you were making to be that ownership (though you would put that word differently) is empowering and positive; no doubt it is. But I think it is not predicitively helpful to see it as underpinning the situation &#8211; rather what underpins the situation is the actual day-to-day of doing the job. The relation to capital is more accurately captured as a small constituent, the effect of which fluctuates with factors such as the nature of the job and company etc</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-5066</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 18:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-5066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Apologies for taking a while to get to this Barney. I haven&#039;t forgotten. I&#039;m trying to work out a good phrasing of what it is I want to say.

Basically my point will be along the lines that the very concept of job satisfaction is created by capitalism - it presumes the current relations of property and production. You can ask a shopfloor worker what makes them happy, and try and maximize these factors - but they&#039;ll still be a shopfloor worker and will still be constrained by the logic underpinning their employment.

I&#039;m not saying that maximizing such factors isn&#039;t a worthwhile endeavour of course.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies for taking a while to get to this Barney. I haven&#8217;t forgotten. I&#8217;m trying to work out a good phrasing of what it is I want to say.</p>
<p>Basically my point will be along the lines that the very concept of job satisfaction is created by capitalism &#8211; it presumes the current relations of property and production. You can ask a shopfloor worker what makes them happy, and try and maximize these factors &#8211; but they&#8217;ll still be a shopfloor worker and will still be constrained by the logic underpinning their employment.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that maximizing such factors isn&#8217;t a worthwhile endeavour of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-5005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-5005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem is not that my model offers no discernible analysis of job satisfaction, it does. Marx was never one to advocate approaching things armed only with theory; empirical research was a key part of his method. To find out what causes job satisfaction, ask workers. Pretty straightforward.

The problem is that this one aspect cannot be reduced first to social relations and then the underpinning material realities. This is what you seem to think Marxism (or my brand of it) aims at: the idea that you can read off everything about a society from the current organisation of production and other such matters.

Achieving the happiness of all is a perfectly legitimate goal - and I have more to say on the relevance of job satisfaction (and other happiness barometers) and their use in any systematic world-view, but it shall have to wait til tomorrow as I&#039;m frazzled and it&#039;s bed time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is not that my model offers no discernible analysis of job satisfaction, it does. Marx was never one to advocate approaching things armed only with theory; empirical research was a key part of his method. To find out what causes job satisfaction, ask workers. Pretty straightforward.</p>
<p>The problem is that this one aspect cannot be reduced first to social relations and then the underpinning material realities. This is what you seem to think Marxism (or my brand of it) aims at: the idea that you can read off everything about a society from the current organisation of production and other such matters.</p>
<p>Achieving the happiness of all is a perfectly legitimate goal &#8211; and I have more to say on the relevance of job satisfaction (and other happiness barometers) and their use in any systematic world-view, but it shall have to wait til tomorrow as I&#8217;m frazzled and it&#8217;s bed time.</p>
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		<title>By: Barney Stannard</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-5002</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barney Stannard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:21:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-5002</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay. That makes a bit of sense. Sounds suitably post-Kantian-with-a-bit-of-empiricism-thrown-in as well. Presuming that job-satisfaction is an important driver of happiness (pretty plausible) and admitting that your model offers no discernible analysis of job satisfaction, doesn&#039;t this leave your model rather limited in its scope? (Presuming of course that people&#039;s happiness is a legitimate political goal - which I think kind of underwrites most political thought - but that is another debate).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. That makes a bit of sense. Sounds suitably post-Kantian-with-a-bit-of-empiricism-thrown-in as well. Presuming that job-satisfaction is an important driver of happiness (pretty plausible) and admitting that your model offers no discernible analysis of job satisfaction, doesn&#8217;t this leave your model rather limited in its scope? (Presuming of course that people&#8217;s happiness is a legitimate political goal &#8211; which I think kind of underwrites most political thought &#8211; but that is another debate).</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-4999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-4999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The material realities which underpin social relations evident in society, those social relations themselves and how they shape our cognition. Of that, job satisfaction concerns only the cognitive.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The material realities which underpin social relations evident in society, those social relations themselves and how they shape our cognition. Of that, job satisfaction concerns only the cognitive.</p>
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		<title>By: Barney Stannard</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-4998</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barney Stannard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:07:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-4998</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay that slightly loses me. What exactly is social totality?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay that slightly loses me. What exactly is social totality?</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-4997</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:05:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-4997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wouldn&#039;t say it is very plausible either; I imagine something so seemingly simple is a very complex. But Marx was not one to suggest that theory should take the place of empirical examination of any subject.

That&#039;s not what we were talking about, however. I was talking about analysis of the social totality; you&#039;re talking about one aspect of it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t say it is very plausible either; I imagine something so seemingly simple is a very complex. But Marx was not one to suggest that theory should take the place of empirical examination of any subject.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not what we were talking about, however. I was talking about analysis of the social totality; you&#8217;re talking about one aspect of it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Barney Stannard</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-4996</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barney Stannard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 23:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-4996</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That looks quite narrow. Your model seems to imply that satisfaction at work is purely a function of how the agent stands in relation to capital. I don&#039;t think that is very plausible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That looks quite narrow. Your model seems to imply that satisfaction at work is purely a function of how the agent stands in relation to capital. I don&#8217;t think that is very plausible.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-4995</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-4995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, property, production, capital and the social relations which different methods of organizing these imply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, property, production, capital and the social relations which different methods of organizing these imply.</p>
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		<title>By: Barney Stannard</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/10/musings-on-socialism-and-lifestylism/#comment-4994</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barney Stannard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Feb 2010 22:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2205#comment-4994</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By material building blocks I presume you mean capital and land, and the control thereof.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By material building blocks I presume you mean capital and land, and the control thereof.</p>
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