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	<title>Comments on: Rebuttal yawn</title>
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	<description>&#34;We know what happens to people who stay in the middle of the road. They get run down&#34; - Aneurin Bevan, 1953</description>
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		<title>By: Rebuttal yawn 3 &#171; Though Cowards Flinch</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-8610</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rebuttal yawn 3 &#171; Though Cowards Flinch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 11:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-8610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] here, reprinted, is my rebuttal from a couple of  months ago, which even regular commenter Barney (no Labour lover, he) thought was a decent riposte to [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] here, reprinted, is my rebuttal from a couple of  months ago, which even regular commenter Barney (no Labour lover, he) thought was a decent riposte to [...]</p>
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		<title>By: vinny</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-5263</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vinny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-5263</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Flexible labour markets eh? That neo-liberal shibboleth that translates as: &#039;easy to hire/ easy to fire/ low wages/ few benefits&#039;.

Bad news Barney. It looks like this neo-liberal orthodoxy of the past three decades could be another victim of the economic crisis.

Who says so? That socialist rag the Financial Times (22 January 2010), looking at the uber-flexible labour markets in the US :

(Giving full quotes as you can&#039;t link to FT, you have to register)

&quot;Something weird is happening to labour markets in the rich world. The link between depth of recession and rise in unemployment is broken. And for the first time in a generation, Europeans can bask in the knowledge that their unemployment would have to rise in order to approach US levels.

In some countries – the US stands out – the decline in output has not been so terrible but the employment shake-out has been brutal. Many more American jobs have been lost than in other countries – and many more than in the past.&quot;


And this is backed up by Trots at the OECD and Harvard:

&quot;The failings of flexibility 

Macroeconomics has learnt the art of eating humble pie. Since the onset of the financial crisis, long-cherished predictions, theories and rules of thumb about the way whole economies work have fallen by the wayside. Is it now the turn of microeconomists to taste some of the same medicine when it comes to the labour market?

For years, it has been the settled view in economics that, in most cases, flexible labour markets are best. More jobs might be lost in a downturn, but this cost was far outweighed by the benefits of flexible pay and the ease of reallocating jobs from dying industries to dynamic ones. No body was more closely aligned with such recommendations than the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the Paris-based club of developed nations.

But now the OECD is modifying its view. &quot;We have been promoting flexibility, not for the sake of it, but for economic performance and for workers to get into new jobs,&quot; says Stefano Scarpetta, the OECD&#039;s head of employment analysis.

This motivation is allowing a change of view. &quot;Judging from the outcomes so far, short-time working schemes seem to have been rather successful in containing the job haemorrhage,&quot; he says, adding that even his organisation is &quot;a little bit more positive on public works programmes: we argue that as part of a labour market approach, they might be worthwhile&quot;.

While this is not a wholesale repudiation of the OECD&#039;s former views, it reflects the fact that, according to the organisation&#039;s own analysis, the gains in employment flexibility of recent years have failed to protect employees from the economic crisis. &quot;There do not appear to be any clear grounds for concluding that workers, generally, are any better or worse prepared to weather a period of weak labour markets than was the case for the past several recessions,&quot; the OECD concluded in its latest Employment Outlook.

Some top economists argue that the theory of superiority of flexible labour markets applies only at full employment. It will not work well when there has been a large shock to demand, output is well below potential and jobs are effectively rationed. In these circumstances, German-style institutions that cushion and spread the pain are probably superior.

For professor Richard Freeman of Harvard University, the problem is simpler. Microeconomists and policymakers spent much too much time fiddling with the work incentives of poor people. &quot;If the unemployed person or the welfare mother... doesn&#039;t do quite as much work as we would like them to do, or as they should, that&#039;s a very small cost to society; when a big banker takes excessive risks, it can bring the whole system to a disaster....so we took the eyes off the ball of the really risky part of capitalism.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Flexible labour markets eh? That neo-liberal shibboleth that translates as: &#8216;easy to hire/ easy to fire/ low wages/ few benefits&#8217;.</p>
<p>Bad news Barney. It looks like this neo-liberal orthodoxy of the past three decades could be another victim of the economic crisis.</p>
<p>Who says so? That socialist rag the Financial Times (22 January 2010), looking at the uber-flexible labour markets in the US :</p>
<p>(Giving full quotes as you can&#8217;t link to FT, you have to register)</p>
<p>&#8220;Something weird is happening to labour markets in the rich world. The link between depth of recession and rise in unemployment is broken. And for the first time in a generation, Europeans can bask in the knowledge that their unemployment would have to rise in order to approach US levels.</p>
<p>In some countries – the US stands out – the decline in output has not been so terrible but the employment shake-out has been brutal. Many more American jobs have been lost than in other countries – and many more than in the past.&#8221;</p>
<p>And this is backed up by Trots at the OECD and Harvard:</p>
<p>&#8220;The failings of flexibility </p>
<p>Macroeconomics has learnt the art of eating humble pie. Since the onset of the financial crisis, long-cherished predictions, theories and rules of thumb about the way whole economies work have fallen by the wayside. Is it now the turn of microeconomists to taste some of the same medicine when it comes to the labour market?</p>
<p>For years, it has been the settled view in economics that, in most cases, flexible labour markets are best. More jobs might be lost in a downturn, but this cost was far outweighed by the benefits of flexible pay and the ease of reallocating jobs from dying industries to dynamic ones. No body was more closely aligned with such recommendations than the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the Paris-based club of developed nations.</p>
<p>But now the OECD is modifying its view. &#8220;We have been promoting flexibility, not for the sake of it, but for economic performance and for workers to get into new jobs,&#8221; says Stefano Scarpetta, the OECD&#8217;s head of employment analysis.</p>
<p>This motivation is allowing a change of view. &#8220;Judging from the outcomes so far, short-time working schemes seem to have been rather successful in containing the job haemorrhage,&#8221; he says, adding that even his organisation is &#8220;a little bit more positive on public works programmes: we argue that as part of a labour market approach, they might be worthwhile&#8221;.</p>
<p>While this is not a wholesale repudiation of the OECD&#8217;s former views, it reflects the fact that, according to the organisation&#8217;s own analysis, the gains in employment flexibility of recent years have failed to protect employees from the economic crisis. &#8220;There do not appear to be any clear grounds for concluding that workers, generally, are any better or worse prepared to weather a period of weak labour markets than was the case for the past several recessions,&#8221; the OECD concluded in its latest Employment Outlook.</p>
<p>Some top economists argue that the theory of superiority of flexible labour markets applies only at full employment. It will not work well when there has been a large shock to demand, output is well below potential and jobs are effectively rationed. In these circumstances, German-style institutions that cushion and spread the pain are probably superior.</p>
<p>For professor Richard Freeman of Harvard University, the problem is simpler. Microeconomists and policymakers spent much too much time fiddling with the work incentives of poor people. &#8220;If the unemployed person or the welfare mother&#8230; doesn&#8217;t do quite as much work as we would like them to do, or as they should, that&#8217;s a very small cost to society; when a big banker takes excessive risks, it can bring the whole system to a disaster&#8230;.so we took the eyes off the ball of the really risky part of capitalism.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-5223</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-5223</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Barney Stannard</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-5222</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barney Stannard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-5222</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good work Paul in rebutting this particularly weak argument. I think the thing that leaps out really is how the party in power has little to do with how much it goes up by, which is really more to do with the general macroeconomic situation.

As an aside, while I am critical of Labour on a number of points, I have to say that there achievement in making the labour market more flexible seems to be paying substantial dividends. Hats off to them, and I hope it continues. And lets hope we don&#039;t double-dip...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good work Paul in rebutting this particularly weak argument. I think the thing that leaps out really is how the party in power has little to do with how much it goes up by, which is really more to do with the general macroeconomic situation.</p>
<p>As an aside, while I am critical of Labour on a number of points, I have to say that there achievement in making the labour market more flexible seems to be paying substantial dividends. Hats off to them, and I hope it continues. And lets hope we don&#8217;t double-dip&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave Semple</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-5220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Semple]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-5220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unemployment goes up and down; it&#039;s more complex than simply assuming that it goes up more regularly than it goes down - not least because the number of workers fluctuates with time, and the demands this creates on the economy don&#039;t always balance out to justify new jobs.

What is true is that since the end of the commitment to full employment, unemployment has had the potential to &lt;i&gt;dramatically&lt;/i&gt; increase very quickly, while it takes a longer time to drop.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unemployment goes up and down; it&#8217;s more complex than simply assuming that it goes up more regularly than it goes down &#8211; not least because the number of workers fluctuates with time, and the demands this creates on the economy don&#8217;t always balance out to justify new jobs.</p>
<p>What is true is that since the end of the commitment to full employment, unemployment has had the potential to <i>dramatically</i> increase very quickly, while it takes a longer time to drop.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Al Widdershins</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-5219</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Al Widdershins]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-5219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Its actually quite unusual for the number of unemployed (however counted) not to rise over time, isn&#039;t it. I wonder what it would look like in terms of percentages... though, as you rightly point out, comparing things in such a way is pretty useless anyway...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its actually quite unusual for the number of unemployed (however counted) not to rise over time, isn&#8217;t it. I wonder what it would look like in terms of percentages&#8230; though, as you rightly point out, comparing things in such a way is pretty useless anyway&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: freethinkingeconomist</title>
		<link>http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2010/02/18/rebuttal-yawn/#comment-5207</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[freethinkingeconomist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 10:08:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/?p=2292#comment-5207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would like to apologise for the lateness of the printers of Alison Wolf&#039;s stuff.  Consider it a blessing - a few more days for you to live in ignorance of arguments that will be devastating to your political ethos...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would like to apologise for the lateness of the printers of Alison Wolf&#8217;s stuff.  Consider it a blessing &#8211; a few more days for you to live in ignorance of arguments that will be devastating to your political ethos&#8230;</p>
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